Ask HN: How to Emigrate from EU and Where?
EU is in a perpetual state of decline and it seems there are no solutions in sight that would change its path in the next decade.
Everything seems so stagnant and the costs of living are rising while the salaries do not increase whatsoever.
What's worse is that due to its economic decline politicians and leaders try to persuade the populace that a lot of things that we enjoy and contribute to our quality of life are now considered luxury or outright sinful. The same kind of rhetoric that is used to sin tax tobacco, alcohol, gambling is now used on things like:
- car ownership - Air Conditioning - Travel - meat and dairy
Southeast Asia is quite nice, especially if you're white.
Live near the beach. Lots of people speak English, Dutch, Spanish. Lower cost of living, decent internet speed. Sin tax can't go too high because of freedom of religion. If you can work remote, the conversion rate is really sweet. If not, the pay is not bad by EU standards and some places are willing to match.
I think that us europeans got spoiled too much in the last 20-30 years and are totally disconnected from the harsh reality of life outside our pretty little garden. Nothing satisfies us anymore, and social media plays a big part on making us think that the grass is always greener on the other side, it is not.
But if you want some more thrill in your life i suggest picking anywhere from the list of less developed countries by the UN, since they have the biggest potential by definition: https://unctad.org/topic/least-developed-countries/list
If you have a tech job and can get one in the US at a US company, then here or Canada (US salaries are higher). The caveat is the job market is not good here for tech workers, even though overall unemployment is low.
You would need to consider things your EU government likely provides for you via higher taxes that you are mostly on your own with over here. Medical insurance and retirement contributions are two big ones you can get help with while employed but aren't nearly as good as what I've heard from EU nations.
Then there is the small stuff which here in the US or EU is good but will vary if you're considering areas in Asia or South America:
- Tap water (water from a sink provided by the city) - can you drink it without getting sick?
- Electricity - are there daily or weekly interruptions? for how long?
- Internet - is internet reliable enough to work remotely for 40-50 hours a week?
- Inflation/Economy - are there a lot of "foreigner" fees/taxes you would owe? is the country going thru large inflation swings?
Asia if you can swing it.
China used to be a great place if you were in tech. It isn't so great anymore, but there are probably still opportunities. The downside is that the internet sucks (you'll have to experiment alot with VPNs, and working solutions become non-working overnight), and pollution is still high in a lot of places where there are jobs. But the upsides: salaries are reasonable (in tech), sins are extremely abundant and not heavily taxed (well, gambling doesn't really exist). Car ownership is possible if you don't mind a n EV, but taxies and public transit are abundant so you can get by without one. You have affordable tickets to the entirety of Asia, escaping to Southeast Asia during golden weeks is relatively affordable.
Where: Paraguay.
Why: https://youtu.be/Ae_CnHeMVVY?si=FmLLgpPJ69OtZoXx
Eu is a big place, does nowhere appeal within it?
Perhaps lookup a digital nomad website as they list requirements for countries around the world to get visa.
Unfortunately, more and more of this stuff is EU-wide and that's only going to be worse. In a decade or two there will be no differences at all from this point of view. That's why it's high time to start looking before everyone else does.
Hey, if you find a country that is not ~in decline, let me know.
Also ... where are you getting the "sin tax for travel ownership" rhetoric from? Like, I follow several eu green parties, and anytime one of them starts with something on banning air-trafic, they get shuffles to the fringe.
I actually like the EU, and if you have specific gripes, you probably will be able to find a country that is more pareto-optimal than one you currently reside in.
If you are after money, USA is still the place to be. Just look at levels.fyi
But I think you are looking at it wrong.
If you are vaguely depressed about the current situation, running away will not help you. Figure out what you want to run towards.
Where to: US.
Emigrating to the US at the moment isn't too great either.
For talented tech people: It's where the money is.
In the EU the compensation difference between top 1% and bottom 1% performers is generally absurdly small.
I think (outside of outliers) this is a common misconception. while your salary might be higher in the US we are paying a sh*tton of money for things that europeans generally do not, ESPECIALLY if you are a parent like myself.
I am meticulous about tracking finance and so far (my daughter is 11) I have spent $374k which if I lived in Europe would now be in my pocket. This isn’t total expenses, this is only expenses that I have to pay for here that I would not otherwise. I also have another decade+ of raising and schooling etc to pay for
Roughly another $50k per year on average I spend currently on other things that I would not be if I lived in Europe…
As someone with a kid, I'm trying to figure out how. First off the average spend for a kid if we can believe reports is 250K and honestly, feels like there's outliers bringing that up. My parents most certainly spend nowhere near that on me.
But even for my kid, who lives a very middle class lifestyle, I don't see how I'm dump even half that into her and she's half your kid's age. I know for a fact that I have not spent that much. My healthcare spend has gone up 3K/year. everything involved in pregnancy up to birth was 8K. I pay for a private school which is than the daycare. I pay for extra activities. Even then I'm not at 100K and most of it is the privage school, I don't have to pay for, but wanted to to better accommodate my special needs kid when she was young. I'm not even doing that next year. I'm struggling to consider where I'd find another 150K+ to spend on her beyond mandated things like clothing. Are you talking college? I guess I'm lucky my state has a state scholarship and community college is free regardless. It's how I only paid 20K to get a bachelor's. I assume my kid will do the same whatever she picks.
my kid has been in daycare from the time she was 2 until time she was 6, that is $2,100/month. she started school at 6 and is now in 6th grade at $30k/year (sending a kid to public school amounts to child abuse unless you can't afford it if for nothing else than having to worry about ak-47's).
at 7 years old she started playing volleyball at a local club, $5.5k/year first 3 years, $12k this year. we are up to $217k. HI is my wife and daughter combined, on average $1.5k/year so let's split that, $750/month, we'll round this to $100k so we are up to $317k. The rest are summer camps...
I don't know if daycare is free in the EU, and I know that some higher education is, but I am confident that private school, summer camp and club sports are not.
You could argue that it would be possible to send your kid to public school safely in the EU, but it would also be possible to send your kid to public school safely in an affluent North American suburb.
It seems you have made lifestyle choices that are perfectly fine but that I would not expect to be subsidized in an egalitarian society, much less an individualistic one.
Doesn't matter if your overall profit is higher. Which it is unless you're a very bad programmer.
Did you put this on paper? this is why I saw it is a misconception, everyone is just talking but if you put it on paper and actually do the math... I earn in the low $800's per year and would probably make 3/5's of that if I was in Europe, the math doesn't work out that I am better off in the US. It is just that my wife doesn't want to move that I am still here :)
480k per year in Europe? That's totally crazy. Where? I have never seen anyone claiming to make more than cca 200k, maybe 300k around here.
that is because they slave on "W2's" - I have been contracting with 2005-ish... on a "W2" it'd be (A LOT) harder but probably doable if you find the right spot. EU has a TON of money for small business, especially if you live in not-so-rich places (balkans, etc...) so doing contracting or starting a small 5-6 people dev shop is not out of reach for most talented and business-savvy devs
Sure. That's very different from coasting at a FAANG though. And living in the Balkans is nothing like living in Bay Area, LA, NYC etc. I don't think it's comparable.
But of course - do what is best for you. If this is your situation and you like living in the Balkans, go for it. I love the place myself.
Overall though, I don't think this is the safe, easy, simple route. That's moving to the US and grinding some leetcode, not learning the basics of Balkan business culture and EU business regulations. I wouldn't recommend that to anyone who doesn't know very well what it takes - usually by going to a business school or having few years of business experience in EU - elsewhere doesn't count, it's much easier elsewhere.
(I have experience exactly with what you suggest, to be clear. I had to stop doing that and go back to a much simpler and less risky principal engineering / SW engineering management job, as the stress and unclear/anti-business regulations were killing me.)
I don't disagree with a single thing you wrote... I am still though sticking with my original comment that it is a big misconception that you are better off financially in US vs. EU (I won't mention non-financial things as that would be unfair and not-even-remotely-fair contest between EU and US) working in the US than EU. I think we focus on gross pay (in US people even talk salary BEFORE taxes which is absolute insanity, like "I make $300k - no you don't you make about 1/2 that depending on where you live, in EU when someone tells you then make $200k they mean that is how much money is deposited into their bank that year...) and not in terms of "real earnings" - very few people that make US > EU claims actually do some math...
Sorry but I have never heard about people's net pay. It's always gross. Everyone has their own combination of tax deductions and benefits, it makes zero sense to talk about net pay - everyone is gonna have something different. And from employer's side, I can't simply tell you what your wage will be in net - that's usually different month by month, depending on your family and housing situation, health/fitness benefits, education status etc. That's why business is so hard here - I had to maintain an army of accountants to do a small simple business...
only america has "04/15" - in every other normal place you talk about actual REAL money, not fictitious money you ain't ever going to see... there are no "deductions" to speak of or anything like that. benefits are federal, HI is taken care of etc etc... only america is all weird about all this (but it is ingenious as you discuss your salary as if you make twice what you do - makes every feel good about - "hey I make $300k" and you actually make $150-$180 depending on state/locality you are at...).
Americans have far higher net worths and disposable income after taxes and social transfers including healthcare according to the EU's own OECD statistics.
I know for a fact pre-tax pay is the main number employers discuss. Your sister is doing something wrong.
You would not make 3/5ths of 800k in the EU. If you are lucky - 30-50% of that, pre-tax.
You clearly haven't looked at living in the EU too seriously, evaluated the job market, run the numbers, etc. I have because I was evaluating this for my LDR. I make 1.2 here in the US (unusual circumstances; nominally 600); I'd make a maximum of 250-300 in the EU for a top offer for the same position.
I get taxed at 55% effective here in commie California but it wouldn't be much less in the EU, while my pay would crater. My fixed costs wouldn't be much different either. Food might be nicer though, and I'd be closer to my LDR. But the EU's long term economic prospects are terrible in the tech space. Insane regulatory overhead means that my company rarely even bothers with deploying new features there.
my sister lives in Europe and so does most of my family. they do not EVEN KNOW what their pre-tax pay is!!! when she interviews and does salary negotiations the number she gets is the number that will deposited into her bank account that will be at her disposal.
several years ago my sister needed a visa to go to UK and they actually asked for this - part of the paperwork was asking for her pre-tax earnings. it took her about a week to figure out where she could get this from...
I don't believe that. It's EU regulation to provide this information. It's featured prominently in all job related communication everywhere in EU.
Your sister simply doesn't care and might be leaving a lot of money on the table. This is not representative of EU people.
Maybe Zuckerberg will let you into his doomsday bunker if you ask nicely. Also, kinda have to ask myself what your mental model of the EU is, if you think it's the same everywhere.
Like others here I don't have a good advice, but what do you mean by making "- car ownership - Air Conditioning - Travel - meat and dairy" sinful?
Just from a foreigner in Amsterdam.
Car owners are considered selfish, it is not considered a sustainable or equitable form of transport.
Air Conditioning, not a traditional things but getting more popular, not considered sustainable.
Travel, airplanes produce a lot of emissions and aren't considered sustainable. Not uncommon for people say why aren't your traveling somewhere closer and/or taking the train across Europe.
Meat, bad for the environment, bad for the animals. Non meat options are extremely popular here.
Dairy, if you ask for milk in a cafe they might play dumb and then ask you "do you mean cow milk". Most of the above I agree with, but I love my milk. Damn passive aggressive baristas! But yeah, the dairy industry is pretty abhorrent so they have that going for them.
All in all though, I'm probably the type of person the OP is probably trying to get away from. But honestly, Europe has plenty of problems but this stuff is literally why I love Europe
That's Amsterdam. I'm betting in small towns (not to mention rural areas) in Netherlands the opposite beliefs are much more popular.
Honestly I can only disagree with you on most of the points.
Speaking of my experience in Amsterdam.
1. Cars are just less practical and expensive. I personally avoid city center at all cost.
2. AC absence is not about sustainability at all. There was no need for them in this climate except a couple of summer weeks.
3. Never heard of people saying that. Constant queues at Schiphol. Government plans to extend and build another one IIRC
4. It’s just normal here to satisfy all of the food preferences.
5. 99% of the cafes has “normal milk”. Lactose intolerance, maybe fashion on oatmilk.. don’t known exact reason on why it’s not only the cow milk.
If you want a place where they pour $1B in a short messages app and $30B in an app to hail a cab, the US is indeed the only place you should call home. Good luck!
If we're ranking by ride hailing app funding: Didi - China ($20B), Grab - Singapore ($10B), Gojek - Indonesia ($6B), Ola - India ($3.8B), Careem - UAE ($0.7B).
WeChat - China (nearly $3B) is probably the world's most dominant messaging company.
Plus China funds games and social media very well too.
Sssssshhhhhh
The Americans don't like to hear that their dominance is at risk.
> $30B in an app to hail a cab
Whereas, in some places in the EU (Germany for example being particularly notorious) you can't reliably hail or pay for a cab by digital means - because "the rules"™.
Yes, Europe has gone a long distance to make sure to be doomed to misery eventually.
Look for countries whith good track of records of entreprenurship, successful non government initiatives etc. i.e. non communist and non totalitarian ones. There are only few of them on this planet.
Nigeria, Colombia, Brazil, Mexico, Thailand and Viernam. The future is theere.
Forget the US people ther are only slightly less depressed than the EU
Nigeria, Colombia, Mexico and Brazil are good places for the OP to go to and get mugged. The reality is that these places are just shit and dangerous. Vietnam and Thailand have their own attractions but they are only popular because they are cheaper not because they are better than the EU.
I’ve lived in Brazil for 29 years and have never been mugged. Brazil is an enormous country with many safe regions. Don’t believe everything the media says—go out and have your own experience.
places where bad things happen are the same where good things happen.
It’s called variance. You can always go to Monaco and pay 25 dollars for a bottle of water, you’d be safe from everything but you’ll also be a nobody
why would you be a “nobody” if you lived in Monaco?? :)
Because having money is only something that elevates you if people around you dont have it.
If everyone is rich nobody is
99.999997% of people on this Earth would gladly be a “nobody” in Monaco :)
Could you please provide a 1-2 sentence reason for each of these countries for why they're the future? This is an interesting list of countries, and I'd like to hear the reasoning behind it.
Thanks!
That's where people are gonna be , that's where most importantly people young and in a good mood are gonna be.
And most importantly those are places where the roulette is still spinning . You want to be where the roulette is still spinning as opposed to places like US; EU; Japan where it has basically almost stopped.
For example a non small amount of people in Nigeria still become rich because of a clerk at the bank credited money to the wrong account by error (and those who reeive the money they go fast to withdraw them and disappear). If you are an incumbent on the scene you want to be where chaos and randomness is.
Also remember not to get fooled by the money indicator such as GDP , median wage etc... the important stuff such as housing, food, staples, utilities, vehicles etc they adjust based on the locality and thus are measured via PPP not absolute terms .
Also remember what Roman Emperor Augustus used to say :"Better to be #1 in a peripheric area of the Empire than #2 in Rome"
Do you live in one of those countries?
>>EU is in a perpetual state of decline
Probably but have you travelled to rest of the World to find something better?
Why would that matter at all? All others are in decline, so we should be too? What a defeatism. Exactly the issue with this society here.
If you're working remotely, Nepal.
Good luck finding a country that doesn’t seem in decline, or improving from horrible to slightly less horrible but still worse than the EU.
It’s also mindset, even if a country is a 3rd world country, if there is growth and a sense of progress, the population will be in a much more optimistic state.
It’s not the current situation which matters, it’s how people look at the future
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