I really don't want to upvote this sentiment but I must anyway.
The fact is, despite Oracle being a menace to the tech industry, Java under their watch is thriving. Which is weird, because I don't know anyone who gives them money for Java. I'm genuinely curious who these companies are and what their incentives are!
I feel like that tide is changing in general. Not that two wrongs make a right, but don’t forget Microsoft once sold “Linux Licenses”, and then there’s the whole SCO vs IBM debacle. Lawyer driven revenue streams are falling out of style, unfortunately Oracle was a late bloomer. They’ve done an incredible amount of damage to their reputation.
Java gets more hate than it deserves. "There are languages everyone complains about and languages nobody uses."
Most of the hate comes from the overly complicated "enterprise design patterns" crap that took over the ecosystem in the late 90s into the 2000s, not the language itself. It's quite possible to write clean, clear, appropriately complex, well performing Java code.
The JVM is really a fantastic piece of engineering and IMHO represents a whole direction in computing I feel sad that we didn't take. We opted to stay close to the metal with all the security, portability, code reuse, and other headaches that entails, instead of going into managed execution environments that make all kinds of compatibility and reuse and portability problems mostly go away.
Surely this is written by an LLM.
Paying per core for “enterprise” just because you’re a business isn’t my idea of being a good steward. If anything we should be championing the OpenJDK folks. They are the real heroes.
The only thing that's paid is support, and the OpenJDK folks are Oracle employees (well, the ~90% of them who do ~95% of the work on OpenJDK). OpenJDK is an Oracle project in the same sense that Chromium is a Google project. In fact, OpenJDK (even more precisely - the OpenJDK JDK) is the name given to Oracle's implementation of the Java SE specification, but we do get contributions from other companies, such as this particular great enhancement to JFR (even external contributions also involve significant work by Oracle employees).
Anyway, if you don't want to buy a support service, either from Oracle or any of the other companies that sell it, the use of the JDK is free. There is no "enterprise" flavour of the JDK, paid features, or use restrictions as there used to be under Sun's management. Java is obviously freer now - as in beer or in speech - than it was 20 years ago.
GraalVM is a separate product developed by an unrelated team. Its enterprise flavour is not considered an enterprise flavour of the JDK. The closest to an enterprise JDK from Oracle I can think of is the "Enterprise Performance Pack" for the 12-year-old Java 8, but it has nothing that isn't in the free and open recent releases (which actually include many more performance enhancements).
The idea there is that it's cheaper for companies with legacy software that isn't actively maintained to pay for some portion of the performance improvements in modern JVM generations than to ramp up maintenance to upgrade to modern Java, and this can help fund the continued evolution of OpenJDK.
What rug pull do you picture could happen at this stage? OpenJDK is the reference spec. Fully open source. Stewarded by multiple companies. Even if Oracle somehow managed to force the whole thing closed source (not sure that's even possible?) you've got all the other contributors who'd "hell no", fork and away you go. Which version of Java do you think the community would go with? There's no way it'd work.
I never thought I would be excited for a new release of Java, but ever since Java 21, I have grown to actually enjoy writing the language. Whomever is running it has really done a good job making the language actually fun to write in the last few years.
What benefit could one possibly get by farming karma on site like hacker news. It's not like one can gather followers or something. I'm always mystified by folks who do this. Would love to understand the motivation.
Having multiple high karma accounts is useful in astroturfing, as moderators are (rightfully) more lenient on established community members than new accounts.
Same thing is widespread on reddit, usually for pushing specific products/projects/organizations into the limelight. Landing on the frontpage of reddit/HN drives huge amount of traffic, so obviously "optimizers" learned this, and started priming accounts for future vote-rings and what not, but they need to mix in real-looking content between the pushes so the accounts don't get banned.
There isn't such thing, if you mean Rust, affine types systems require tree structures and have issues with multiple scopes, hence the memes with borrow checker.
Which I would refer as compiler assisted, although not really a proper term.
There is a reason outside Rust, everyone else is string to combine GC alongside affine/linear/effects/dependent types instead of one solution for everything.
The productivity of having a GC, with the type system capabilities to go lower level, when the profiler says so.
Although I have to conceded, Rust made a great job bringing ATS and Cyclone ideas into mainstream.
Additionally with AI powered languages, naturally most of this will be automated anyway.
The JVMin in the last 6-8 years has been a powerhouse of innovation and cool features. Incredibly impressive!
And a thank you to Oracle for being a good steward of the language.
I really don't want to upvote this sentiment but I must anyway.
The fact is, despite Oracle being a menace to the tech industry, Java under their watch is thriving. Which is weird, because I don't know anyone who gives them money for Java. I'm genuinely curious who these companies are and what their incentives are!
I feel like that tide is changing in general. Not that two wrongs make a right, but don’t forget Microsoft once sold “Linux Licenses”, and then there’s the whole SCO vs IBM debacle. Lawyer driven revenue streams are falling out of style, unfortunately Oracle was a late bloomer. They’ve done an incredible amount of damage to their reputation.
For real. When Sun got bought, I thought to myself: “At least they would also destroy Java…”.
But nooo, Java thrives and flourish under Oracle protection.
Java gets more hate than it deserves. "There are languages everyone complains about and languages nobody uses."
Most of the hate comes from the overly complicated "enterprise design patterns" crap that took over the ecosystem in the late 90s into the 2000s, not the language itself. It's quite possible to write clean, clear, appropriately complex, well performing Java code.
The JVM is really a fantastic piece of engineering and IMHO represents a whole direction in computing I feel sad that we didn't take. We opted to stay close to the metal with all the security, portability, code reuse, and other headaches that entails, instead of going into managed execution environments that make all kinds of compatibility and reuse and portability problems mostly go away.
Surely this is written by an LLM. Paying per core for “enterprise” just because you’re a business isn’t my idea of being a good steward. If anything we should be championing the OpenJDK folks. They are the real heroes.
The only thing that's paid is support, and the OpenJDK folks are Oracle employees (well, the ~90% of them who do ~95% of the work on OpenJDK). OpenJDK is an Oracle project in the same sense that Chromium is a Google project. In fact, OpenJDK (even more precisely - the OpenJDK JDK) is the name given to Oracle's implementation of the Java SE specification, but we do get contributions from other companies, such as this particular great enhancement to JFR (even external contributions also involve significant work by Oracle employees).
Anyway, if you don't want to buy a support service, either from Oracle or any of the other companies that sell it, the use of the JDK is free. There is no "enterprise" flavour of the JDK, paid features, or use restrictions as there used to be under Sun's management. Java is obviously freer now - as in beer or in speech - than it was 20 years ago.
There is an enterprise flavor of the JDK. It's called GraalVM enterprise edition.
That has nothing to do with OpenJDK, GraalVM is its own thing.
You’re the only one who put “Open” in there. Both your parent and grandparent said JDK.
GraalVM is a separate product developed by an unrelated team. Its enterprise flavour is not considered an enterprise flavour of the JDK. The closest to an enterprise JDK from Oracle I can think of is the "Enterprise Performance Pack" for the 12-year-old Java 8, but it has nothing that isn't in the free and open recent releases (which actually include many more performance enhancements).
The idea there is that it's cheaper for companies with legacy software that isn't actively maintained to pay for some portion of the performance improvements in modern JVM generations than to ramp up maintenance to upgrade to modern Java, and this can help fund the continued evolution of OpenJDK.
OpenJDK is the specification implementation. A huge amount of the OpenJDK development is paid for by Oracle (And others).
Because they have a financial interest in rug pulls.
What rug pull do you picture could happen at this stage? OpenJDK is the reference spec. Fully open source. Stewarded by multiple companies. Even if Oracle somehow managed to force the whole thing closed source (not sure that's even possible?) you've got all the other contributors who'd "hell no", fork and away you go. Which version of Java do you think the community would go with? There's no way it'd work.
Why do you think a good steward shouldn't have a financial interest?
Nope, people keep forgetting no one wanted to buy Sun, not even Google after torpedoing (which would save them from their J++ like lawsuit).
IBM kind of thought of it, but ended up withdrawing the offer.
So the anti-Oracle folks would have seen Java wither and die in version 6, and the MaximeVM technology would never had been released as GraalVM.
`sdk install java 21.0.8.fx-librca`
No pre-core fee needed.
I never thought I would be excited for a new release of Java, but ever since Java 21, I have grown to actually enjoy writing the language. Whomever is running it has really done a good job making the language actually fun to write in the last few years.
The more I search for a new language to learn the more I want to go back to Java. I feel so nostalgic :)
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ChatGPT
Thank you for telling, I went through their comments and they all like this :-( While having substance very obviously AI generated
someone should write an LLM detector bot that just leaves this comment on all AI slop
what?
I believe they are saying that the commenter looks a lot like karma farming with an llm, it leaves a lot of comments like this one
What benefit could one possibly get by farming karma on site like hacker news. It's not like one can gather followers or something. I'm always mystified by folks who do this. Would love to understand the motivation.
Having multiple high karma accounts is useful in astroturfing, as moderators are (rightfully) more lenient on established community members than new accounts.
Same thing is widespread on reddit, usually for pushing specific products/projects/organizations into the limelight. Landing on the frontpage of reddit/HN drives huge amount of traffic, so obviously "optimizers" learned this, and started priming accounts for future vote-rings and what not, but they need to mix in real-looking content between the pushes so the accounts don't get banned.
If you care about performance at that level, you should not be using Java or any other language with a GC.
Thankfully not everyone agrees.
https://www.ptc.com/en/products/developer-tools/perc
We have already have had enough from anti-GC cargo cult from "manual memory management is great" folks.
Having a GC (which RC is also an algorithm subset), doesn't preclude having other features.
There is also non manual, non GCed manual management.
I agree that a GC can be a viable implementation of memory management though.
There isn't such thing, if you mean Rust, affine types systems require tree structures and have issues with multiple scopes, hence the memes with borrow checker.
Which I would refer as compiler assisted, although not really a proper term.
There is a reason outside Rust, everyone else is string to combine GC alongside affine/linear/effects/dependent types instead of one solution for everything.
The productivity of having a GC, with the type system capabilities to go lower level, when the profiler says so.
Although I have to conceded, Rust made a great job bringing ATS and Cyclone ideas into mainstream.
Additionally with AI powered languages, naturally most of this will be automated anyway.
Ref counting is also no GC by the definition of a GC I was brought up with.
But yes, I was also thinking about the borrow checker.
Not necessarily in Rust, as other languages start to adopt similar techniques.
There are ways to mitigate this, the fly weight pattern, etc.